Sounder SIGN UP FOR FREE
Artists With Benefits
Artists With Benefits

Episode 3 · 1 month ago

Episode 3: Who benefits? UBI, creative work and cultural policy

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Live panel discussion of issues raised in previous episodes about creative work - with Heidi Ashton (University of Warwick), Stephen Brown (Musicians Union) and Mags Patten (Arts Council England) and guests. Including discussion of universal basic income, the 'intermittent' system for supporting French artists during periods of unemployment, the role of trade unions, hyperlocal ensembles. Who will benefit from policies designed to make creative work fairer - and who decides who will benefit?

Hello, I'm Chris Bilton From Universityof Warwick and you're listening to episode, three of the artist withbenefits podcast. For this episode we recorded a livediscussion on Microsoft teams, so some of the sound quality is a little bitdodgy. The idea was to reflect on some of the questions rate in previousepisodes about creative work in particular whether the welfare systembroadly defined, can make possible a more open, fair and sustainablecreative economy. We started the discussion with commentsfrom our panel Hyde Ashton, associate professor of Creative Industries atUniversity of Warwick, Stephen Brown, regional organizer for the MusiciansUnion in the Midlands and Mag Patten, executive, director of Public Policyand Communication at Arts Council England, with a particular interest inwork, forced diversity in the art sector. Aside from their day jobs, allthree of our panel have experienced working in the arts hid is a dancer andchoreographer. Most recently working on the Netflix series. Bridgeton Stephenas a working musician and songwriter mags comes from a broadcastingbackground, a Channel Four. We began with hidy talking about what struck herin the previous podcast episodes. Firstly, questions about education andparticipation. Secondly, questions about the relationship betweenfreelance artists and cultural institutions. What really struck mefirst and foremost, was that in the kind of Norwegian context in theScottish context, there seemed to be a confundantur underlying understandingof the value and importance of participation in culture asparticipation in society, whether that's as an audience, member or orengaging in it as a participant and participating, more kind of as what acultural worker at the actually. The the kind of the cultural health ofsociety was important and that seemed to undepending some of the more some of the more kind of progressiveideas around how the fate can help that to flourish andfunction, and then so, I guess a lying to those two things. He would. Therewere two for me, two kinds of separate areas and one being kind of educationand part and pathways in and the other one being kind of cult for work and interms of of education. It was interesting to hear her. He speakingabout the different opportunities that used to be available to start things up,but also access to free education, and I think what that highlights for me iswhen we look at our education system now: State education system in Englandand, of course, education being devolved in the UK anyway, and so thatwould be different in other parts of the UK Bun in England. Certainlythere's a strong focus on stem the e back that his coming has has moved thelimited funding and resources that schools have from any kind of arts andcreative subjects to be focused on the e back subjects which completely you know, obviously, that are not ancultural subjects and not included in those cory back subjects so, and thatdoes leak to the value. So then, what people think about what education isfor and how your education is developed and how you are developed asa person functioning in society or being able to enjoy society and be amember of participation. Your participation within that and youraccess to it is fundamentally then shaped by thisidea that stem equals good at one culture is, youknow, fluffy kind of Nice to have, but not really important, and that, if youwant you know what you need is a proper job and that that term comes up againand again in the research, but it came up as well in the podcast a, and so Ithink there is a need as well for kind of fundamental shift there in how we'revaluing right from the early agent early early years, if you like, and andthat with that being included in this kind of overriding idea of what welfareand benefits are, and it clearly is something that needs to be needs tostart right at the beginning, because how do you have aspirations of people of o,particularly the I think, Martin was...

...talking about people in working classesthat he he was wet with you? It's not even they hadn't even made that kind ofleap to something that they can do. You know it's something: That's available,it's actually a job and in reality, of course, the Cultram creative sectoractually supports all kinds of jobs. I was on set the other day. There'sconstruction workers, there there's a kind of trades there there's you knowthe the technology that goes intimate UF if it supports actually so manyother jobs in so many other industries, and I think that's not recognized orperhaps valued in a way that it could be fundamentally from a young age andthen kind of going on to find of the areas of work. And so with my work withFree Lances. There is certainly a problem with the relationship betweenorganizations and freelance workers, and I think that came through in thepodcast in that. So Simon was talking about the ways inwhich kind of the marketing and people whohave to get the funding, like you know, spendmost of their time, applying for grants and funding and how those jobs arehaving to be paid for was the people creating the work and the the artiststhemselves are freelances and in some way kind of extendable, so that when wehave a problem, they they're not included as the core activity of thesebig institutions that are funded and, and that actually goes across both the kind of subsidies and the commercialsector. And so there is a need for some legislation to protect workers and tomaybe redefine what freelance means and what those rights are. And so because,as I think, came through in those podcasts a lot of the work on.Certainly the training that is required to go into these industries and thehidden work in the research that they do, the the amount of jobs that they have toapply for the work that they're doing behind the scenes to get the work. Andnone of that is then compensated. So there was as just as an example to tryand kind of bring into something a put that people can relate to. There was anissue with the dancers at the Royal Opera House in the OPRA. Companies arenot in the ballow company, but in the upper company there all free lancedances and at one point they're getting paid less than the box office staff. Sothere isn't any way to say that actually, your ten years of training tobecome a professional dancer is actually worth something, as it isworth. It's worth something in the job market. In terms of being able to thenafford to continue their training and because their athletes they need to goto class. It costs the money to go to class, to keep up their physicalabilities and to maintain that and to get the next job, and- and none of thatis kind of recognized currently, and I think we need to find a way torecognize that within the structures- and one of those mentioned was the kindof ensemble structure. So you did have people who were Poeti an ensemble so that the creativeworkers were embedded as as kind of full time. Workers and some of the workthat I've been doing with with Mark Lie. Packer is around theidea of hyperlocal on symbols, which it is more kind of German model where youwould have an ensemble of a theater on sengle, perhaps or it could be any kindof ensemble who are working and producing and creating work that isrelevant to the community and involves the community in the community areimbedded in it in various different ways, but those workers are actuallysalaried rather than being just brought in on a freelance basis. So I thinkthere are different ways that need to involve all kinds of things, so part ofthat might be well formed and benefit. Parts of that is the ways in which thesubsidize subsidy is spent and the protections around those subsidies, butpart of it as well, is about, I think, legislation and how, because what wedon't want to end up doing is just having a system whereby we were subsidizing companies to makemoney by allowing them to pay workers less and then and then having the theyou know, the government pick up the TAB for to so they can live and so thatthey can pay their rent at that can't be the solution, so the solution needsto kind of be more holistic. I guess is what I'm saying, but I'm sure there areother people I seen Naturalis here from the Creative Industries Federation andTrevor is here so the there are other people, I'm sure who can contributemore t on those kind of issues...

...brilliant. Thank you very much holy.That's that's really useful and some good talking points already, but thoseof you who don't know who these people are. The panel consists of Hid Ashton,whose assistant professor of Creative Industries at University of Warwick andStephen Brown who's, the regional organizer for the Musicians Union forthe Midlands and Mag Patten, who's the executive director of public policy andcommunications, but with a focus on diversity, workforce diversity at thearts, council, England. So Stephen over to you. Thank you, Chris Yeah. For Mysins, I'm also the chair of the Cultural and Leisure IndustriesCommittee that we have through the Tu Ce in the Midlands. So I guess I'm goingto try and where two hats, but my preoccupation, I guess, will be withthe plight of musicians and kind of inputting into the subject. Onthat basis, I was really interested listening tothe two podcast and I think the first podcast actually nailed a lot of theissues. So I'm going to try but probably be unsuccessful in repeatingsome of those issues that were raised, and I had a bit of a stream ofconsciousness. When I was listening to the two podcast and I've written somenotes down here- and I don't I'm I'm a little bit of a devil because, likeevery time I write notes down or do a speech for a conference or one of thesethings, I tend to go off peace a little bit. So if I do do that, apologies, butI will try and bring it back into the subject matter, because I think youknow it is kind of relevant really in a lot of ways at the top of my listreally in all of this in in capital. Letters other words talent pipeline,and I think that's where the biggest crisis in the industry kind of exists is the biggest challengeand highly touched on some of it in terms of education and I'll. Come on tothat. But that's one of my primary concerns. How we get people into theindustry, give them opportunities and when they are within the industry, howthat industry kind of behaves in the sense that itneeds to be equal and fair and what the pay rates are like and what the supportis. So the kind of a quality of access to acareer and the opportunities to get into the career quite important, both from a personal perspective andfrom you know, a wider EMU and to use perspective, and I say that, on thebasis that I'm a product really of birming and music education in the lates and early is where I learned to play trumpet and played inbrass bands. Gott fed up with planning brass bands picked up a guitar, but thestructure and knowledge that I'd learned from my music education haskind of led me to where I am now. I've had all those fracas jobs. You knowthat the insecure work, often agency jobs, to try and maintain a musiccareer, and here I am now as a regional organizer in probably the first decentpaid job. I've had in a very long time- and I think you know that that's an important thingthat we should. We should consider in all of thisreally because it doesn't exist any more in the way that it did when I wasat school and growing up and learning instruments. Even though later Ichanged instruments- and you know it's- let me to go all over the world playing song, writing and composing, and I'mreally concerned that a lot of those opportunities are now not there foryounger people, particularly from disadvantaged communities. And, ofcourse, we've had ten years of government austerity, which hasn'thelped one little bit. It's had a massive impact on our sector, not justmusicians, but you know, if you speak to back to the techies union or equity,the Actors Union, it had a massive impact upon them as well, and I wrote areport of Barry for the TUC at the end of last year on the challenges that theMidlands faces really and and the loss of income and the financial damagingcareer damage that it's done, because you know forty percent of our membersdidn't get any help whatsoever from government schemes, and you know it'skind of exacerbated and accelerated the issues of like music being seen as a sideline andhid dimensions. You know get a real job that kind of equation, and it's exactlywhat my old man said to me. What my dad said to me, you know when I am Bavo mymusic career, so you know society latitudes are actually quite important.I I in all of this, but when you've got...

...people at the top of their game intheir career, who plan symphony orchestras as free lances, you know ending up working in care homes forless than ten quid an hour is quite disturbing as a trade union is to seethat and I think, as a society, we should be quite concerned about thatfrom a cultural perspective you know and the level of which we we operate as a society as well,because I think we punch well above our weight as a country in terms of ourcultural offer, and I think that's a that's a risk. Public Policy, I think,is vital in all of this and the support models of public policy. It can offer you know- and I don'tthink that's just about education, it's about roots into the industry. It'sabout supporting people once they're in the industry. I mean years ago when thenational lottery first started. My own band took advantage of some nationallottery money and we used it to do it to Er to take what we what we were doing atthat particular time, which is a particular form of phote music out tocommunities and it paid. You know, for all the transport costs the kind ofincome cost that we would need to be able to do that that we wouldn't haveotherwise done, and it's kind of schemes like that. That I think, arevital. It would be obvious for me to say, as a trade unionist, then you knowthe thing that we haven't talked about is collective bargaining and the impactthat tried unions can have on the sector. The Mu, likewise with Beck toand equity, has collected bargain agreements, not only with employersthat employ employees. You know in my sector music, it will be symphonyorchestras, for example, anywhere from the Royal Opera House to the BBC, toBirmingamien to the city of Birmingham Symphony Orchester we've got collected,bargain glimes that cover pay terms and conditions, and even though that payhas been eroded because they're, you know in a big way, dependent on kind of public funding from thegovernment which has been cut. At least you know I can say with my hand on Mahaif people do end up in a job like that at least they know that their terms andconditions are going to be projected by Potra Union collective bargaining andto an extent, that's also extended to freelance orchestras, because we haveagreements that cover free, lances and freelance orchestras, as we do in therecording industry, the film and TV industry and theater and the West End.So that, for me, is very important. I was involved in coming back to publicpolicy drafting a document called the court from manifesto the T, culturalmanifesto, which designs six key principles reallyin terms of public policy and I'll just quickly read them out to you, because there is a general context to thisborels. It's also relative to the Midlands, because it's specific to theMidlands issues, because we don't have any film in TV studio facilities withinthe Midlands Anymore, BBC shut it down. I TV shut it down, and you know we'veheard we've. Probably a mar may not be aware of the you know, peaky blindersand Stephen Knight, and all that the actual provision of a studiofacility, Film and TV Studio Facility within the Midlands, I think, iscultural to the sustain of t e is important to the sustainability of acareer not just for musicians, but also for actors. You know and those people involved onthe technical and construction side and what stills all that who are aboutchannel for moving it doesn't necessarily mean that those jobs in thesector that would exist in the Midlands, for example, if something was bought,he a but it wasn't, alternately would be based here. You know: It'dstill be stuff that made in London and they just got an ad man center, whereever riches they have. It now leads a thing, so the six principles that wehad in our culture- Manifesto Midlands,Film and Television, Studio Facility, Trade, unionrecognition and implementation of negotiated agreements as a condition ofpublic funding, an integrated local government policy framework to support,live venues, festivals and street performers, including infrastructure,public transport, regulatory frame, work, etc. An increase in publicspending on the arts in the Midlands until per capita regional arts spending.Some apart with London, we did a bit of research and I thinkthe spending public spending for Head of population in the Midlands issomething like four pounds. Sixty three, whereas in London, is something likesixty nine pounds ahead. So, there's a massive financial difference betweenwhat goes on in London and the regions, particularly the Midlands, which is oneof the poorest funded areas when it...

...comes to cultural, spend by governmentand local authorities, etc. Secure properly paid professional employmentfor cultural workers and arts, educators, local control of all all ourspending in the region, including ice moneys. He some of that- and Ithink I came up in the podcasts- was about what local authorities ortown councils or metropolitan mayors can do to facilitate. You know culturalactivities being supportive, both professional and participative in intheir own regions. So, finally, I guess my last pointreally is it's a bit out there and I don't think it's kind of been part ofthese discussions. It's about sustainability and the green agenda. Wejust had our MU conference last week and there were a number of notablemotions that came up from our members. One was about UBI universal basicincome and the union supporting that. So now we've got our policy to do so,the other ones about tax incentives or tax changes for freelances and how asystem might be accommodated to support freelances in that way, and I thinkthere are similar schemes that the movers of emotions at an yewconference had in minds schemes in France- and I think island for example, and hardly touched on thisas well about how that will impact and future policy on employment and selfemployment rights. But all of this is kind of it won't amount to a hill ofbeans. If we haven't got a planet to live on and lots of ourdelegates at t shirts. That said no music on a dead planning. You know andwe have situations where are members, and I'm sure this is true across thecreative sector to thousands and thousands and thousands of miles everyyear, just to do a gig or to work in a theater. And you have to ask thequestion: how sustainable is that and how does it draw sustainable careers toparticular regions? And I think that's another area that needs to be addressed.That's quite important in all of this. How do we support local regionalcultural activity, so people living in those areas can sustain a career and that's my stream ofconsciousness? I thank you for listening. Our final panelist is Max PatentExecutive, director of public policy and communication at art, council,England. At the start of the Weatherno we ran a pole where we askedparticipants, would a universal basic income open up career paths into thecultural sector? Fifteen people responded yes, nobody said No. Althougha few people responded yes, but and wanted to clarify that this was a realuniversal basic income for all, as opposed, for example, the targetedschemes for artists being developed in Ireland. I started off by asking magsfor her take on the UBI from an art policy perspective. I think it isfascinating to policy thinkers because of its subtractions, both asideological from the left and the right. But it's also you know it is. It is oneof those big ideas that that maybe will look back on one day and go yes. Thatwas the moment where, where things tit towards it, in the way that may be, thewelfare state is tiptoes, past or or whatever, but that may be in realitywere not there yet. So I guess. I think that the point I make about it is thatthe as well as all of those actual experiments- I can Finland et Ceasenthat are being done about me. Bel. I think, there's lots of reallyinteresting natural experiments and it feels like a reaching fertile groundfor for academics to look at, because, if you're building evidence face andthe arguments towards towards it- and I do believe that that some kind ofmechanism like that would support a more sustainable cultural sectoreventually. Is that that you do need that evidenceto make to make the arguments from it? So I mean to foot just to take, forexample, at the program that the arts I get this son, because I'm a bit morefamiliar with it than others, a program that the arts council has developingyour creative practice, which which supports, which supports Alt, is not todo projects but but to literally develop I mean, I think, that's apotentially a really interesting expect area to for the behaviors andincentives that sit around a kind of a universal income. So if you talk torecipients of developing your creative practice, El that talk, obviously aboutthat fundamental idea or moving risk, a...

...and of being given confidence andvalidation, but also that they are able to use it to invest in creative skillsand business skills and to invest in building their networks. But most ofall- and in some of the conversations I had this sort of said, it buys me timeand it feels like these are sort of valuable class, quite qualitativethings that that you can obviously measure and capture that all benefitsof of that sort of a ton. Depending support that that feel like that. Thereis a you know: the ACADEM has a lot to contribute. I think in terms of helpingus on to stand a bit and build the Argune for, and I think that was kindof what I wanted to say about Oubie. I definitely I m an I'm, no expert ing atthe various different mechanisms and drivers of it, although I think it'sfascinating. So I think the point that I was goingto make him response to the podcast, which were excellent, and I gave me Mochi really enjoyable, a couple ofhours away from decision making relate really to my isis, my areas of interest,but both responsibility at the Arts Council. I'm kind of I'm almost almostthe exception in sense that my background is, is not. It is much morein public policy than it is grounded in the sceptral or I have worked in thesector for a short time as well. So my interest is in more in the public'spolicy space and the equality space, and I suppose that's where I'm I'mcoming at this more than than the many of my other colleagues might say. Myconcern and interest is, in the the whole work for psychology andlooking at Tipoti through a faires and Equality Lens and support, as soprobably the two things that I wanted to sort of emits a bit of a challengeto to one point made in the podcast and then I want it to kind of resoundingly.DEMENT LY agree with another aspect of it. So so the challenge, I think for me,was a bit about the the point that made about the division of employees intoinstitutional workers and a free land service within the sector. Now, ofcourse, that isn't? That is a you know, classifiable reality. But I think thepoint I wanted to make is that I think that there's generally a o underinvestment in it in people and talent over overalland specifically within support services within cul culturalinstitutions. So they might feel that counterintuitive to pity the halty. ButI think, if we believe in people in terms of their human, social, cultural and economic capital, weabsolutely need to invest in them, and- and that includes people who are inhouse and freelance within an organizations all bit, and I think thatleads you perhaps to an argument there about more what we need to see moremergers of bathroom services and things across organizations not necessarilyfor efficiencies, but actually to support the value of the workforce. For me in sensee imbalances, perhapsless between people and more historical and investments in physical capital.This is human capital and I'm using a I'm using that to human captal, loosething. What in in the Minari confined to the economic, the economist, meaningthere? I think my second point is a bit moreabout Verman agreements that was around play. caplets are a really insightfulimportant discussion about of our place, but I think that- and I think we reallyneed to think about place in terms of the divers divers need of work, as is afantastic peck paper by Professor Nick Henry andcolleague from contre and more on Peck website, and I was really struck by the the work they done to produce ataxonomy of freelances as a way of recognizing that complexity andthinking about how you might respond to it in policy terms. So so fruit, SAMand a window through the whole tax. On me,it's a great paint prove if people haven't already had had to look at it,but a couple of examples. One was the idea of the community created as theylabelled it, which was also came out very strongly in the podcasters in thecensers and opportunity. I think that clearly already exists within ourworld. We already have amazing artist, working in communities and Co, creatingand it's an important group working on social and world being outcomes andpaps ecology is a is a bit less disunion Al Ther Artis deeply embedded as a sane co,creating doing doing doing extraordinary stuff. I think theopportunity there is that the wine of public policy environment is startingto see that opportunity and to start to create the join ups of the Jig saw thatwe need to grow that that that piece of the taxonomy I ye like so tangibly sing increased NHS investmentsand in health and well being...

...communities and seeking an cultures asa route to improve health outcomes. Another example for the tax on andtaxonomy that t y t t that they create it is it's so, it's really hard to say,but precarious projects and of secret characterized as a strugglingwith contracting and and peese issues, and moving pat some project project,but not necessarily building tors anything, for example, in terms ofsocial capital in a place like it feels to me, with my work force, Hatton thatwe do need to understand this group. More, I think, because that may be thepeople that we are losing at this point and making assumptions here, but quitelikely from less well off backgrounds, quite likely may be more likely to bedisabled or from an ethnic minority background. So there's a question for people likeme about what the policy and institutional responses for them. You know especially three dances thatdon't necessarily want to work in at invented community context. We do needan ecology that creates opportunities at all scales, so I'm just going to summarize a littlebit by trying to trying to get into solutions of which I haven't got all ofthem, but by any means, obviously, and a lot of the policy solutions againneed to take place at different scales on levels as clearly horizontalmeasures that the government needs to address about the structure, work andthings. But if you're talking about aninstitutional solution, I don't like to sit the factory at Hadam in Manchesteras an interesting example, and that that you may be aware of that. It isassociated with the factory project in the Manchester International Festivaland, What's interesting about it. That's that's different is that it, thefunding model, is embedded within the funding. Mobile is work, force,development across and it's for Workus developmentacross the place, and that is built into the model, and that means that thefestival work together with the factory. It's sort of the factory self. What'sgather with home, with Manche situation, museum with the Palace Theater and manymore force, the both the publicly fundis in the and thecommercial sector, to kind of create gloom that that thatenables more workforce placements paid placements and apprenticeships,and I think, there's an interesting question for me about where theprograms, like the academy, could also become focal points and networks tosupport some of that freelance precariout more as well. Just quickly, then t a couple of policy responses as well.Well from our you know from asking you know what we think of the art pots weneed to do in terms of these challenges. I mean in the big picture. I think we've absolutely recognized a Dand Covin has revealed the vulnerabilities in the workforce, suchsome of which became a lot more obvious because of it, and I think thedirection a on use strategy is important, because there is a realfocus on the ecology and workforce and development within the new strategy andhaving a strategic response means that we can then orientate more of ourprograms towards that work. A couple of specifics, I might cite, is theincreased investment we've made in creative practitioner artists of thisyear, which I think, subject to future spending reviews were committed to. Ithink an interesting question for us is about governance of organizations infuture and emerging forms of governance, and I think someone that earliermentioned assemblages and Co ops and how could we, as the Arts Caseros,relate to the sort of government, this governance model better, because thatwould help the sorette of funding processes, and I think we, you know, we have a jobto do to think about interventions into what is, after all, a very complexsystem where I mentioned blue before. But I think where we can try and cludethings together and help. So, for example, we had a we recently investedin creative industries, federation screen skills and C C skills, creativecareers campaign, because we know one of the problems with the pippin thatSteven mentioned is that is that a lack of high quality careers and informationto help people make the leap both from higher education, but as a passionategovernor of a Fi college also from further education, created productiontraining into the sector. So sorry, that's a bit goble as well and a bitprobably a bag or not, but a lot of thoughts that I hope is sort ofinteresting through into the mix after the panel had their say. Weopened up a wider discussion with...

...contributions from Weber areparticipants. We didn't have time to include everybody in the discussion,but here are a few of the highlights. First of all, does universal basicincome? U, B I offer a respite from the divide and rule of targeted subsidiesand schemes. Stephen Brown argues that in the music industry, without somesystem of regulation and support, there will be a race to the bottom. One ofthe issues that creative workers have- and we see this you know amongst our members. If thereis a project of Badon, I becomes a little bit of a bidding war betweenmembers about who might get that project to who might get that Gig. Sobecomes a race to the bottom, and I talked about you know: Collectingbargaining in those sectors that are regulated but there's a whole sectorout there that isn't regulated. You know you still got people doing. GEEKS and trying to furthertheir own career, getting offered fifty quid or sixty quid by a pop and thathaving to do that kind of every night of the week just to sustain andmusicians. You know particular a greater collaborative working and working as a team andcreating and writing music and stuff like that, but the same time they'realso business competitors are they and that creates its own issues, because,if they're already desperate for work and there's no support mechanisms, whatare they going to do? They're going to try and undercut each other? And Ithink that's why, when we talk about things like universal basic kingcommits it's actually quite a critical conversation, because it would give aflaw for creative people to know that they've got that income coming in.Hopefully it would be set, and you know it's a at a reasonable wraith to enable them to pursue. You know the career that they enjoyrather than having to do something that they endure. You know, like a lot of mymembers: I've I've, driven delivery, vans and worked in a sort in office,and you know worked in a wares and to allthose kind of things and they absolutely mentally and physicallydrying. You and put you in a position where you just don't feel able to create. So I think we need to bearthat in mind when we have this conversation about the Intercompetition between creatives and the negative aspects that can bring aboutif there is zero regulation of that market. SALLIANNA is a lecturein Music Business Management at University of Westminster, as well asbeing a music producer, any system of welfare and U B, I forartists, will have to deal with questions of regulation and evaluation.So Sally asks us to consider what are the criteria for gaining access to theindustry, so called talent, pipe line? Who Decides who is in and who is out?If we open the pipe line to everybody? Is there enough work to go around andif we narrow the pipe line, who gets left out? What are the entry criteriaand who decides them? My kind of thoughts here are about therelationship between the idea of regulation and under regulation. I takeit to me what we who, what we and who we define as creatives, who would bethese people that would receive these benefits. I very much question what really goes on when we say thepipe line, because I my course I can say to anyone applying to the musicindustry. Don't I can describe it as one of the worst places to work asunequal and just deserat wanting in interview and I getnormal students every year I never had as many students I have now. I simplycan't deal with the numbers of students that applying to an MA music businessmanagement when clearly you don't need one to work in the music industry. Sothere's a very odd thing going on here. That has a lot to do with historic,historic ideas about access, but who gets to be where and when? So I thoughtit was just on a kind of really just super ficient superficial work,but kind of very interesting level that we started talking about orchestrasvery quickly. Well, my background is in Rave and drama base and Rave Cultureand electronic music, and you know running a DJ agency from akitchen with my kids running around. So I come from a very, very differentplace, and this is a very, very different world in which creativesaren't working in what we might call high culture, but they aren't workinglocally in the way we imagine locally, but they are still local, because grimeculture is absolutely local, so that so I'm interested here in what we meanwhen we say regulation. How might we imagine evaluation if we are to saythere will be entry points, because...

...there is no shortage of supply in thisindustry? We are overwhelmed. I am overwhelmed by music by usually ninethirteen in the morning I've already had. I can't tell you how many hoursand how many people have always sent me music this morning, I'm also I'm also atrusty on the Ivor's academy on a part of women in control, and I also run therich and antery scholarship. That's been running for four years to bringblack young black creatives into the musicindustry, so ve been working in the kind of social dustie diversity areafell the loss actively very much. The last I also anther think could let'schange the record, which is for women in music production. So I'm very wellaware of what these problems are and and always as Christmas, I run a record label inParis and I have worked in France, the last twenty years, so I'm very familiarwith into Miton, which is a system of redistribution of income for artists,right which I have benefited from myself as theproducer of music in France. Right so intimate an does work, but it alsoexcludes lots of people. Yesterday I was talking to a hip hopgroup in Marse and they excluded for various reasons. So if we're talkingabout futures of work in creative industries, I think we need to thinkabout what regulation will mean. I think we want to think about whatevaluation would mean, and then we want to think about what is the benefit tothe local community o? What is it? The local communitywants and how would we, because, in a way, this is all about recentredistribution of wealth, cultural wealth, holistic, well, being mental health?All of these things we know music culture. Does people good? How dowe increase that flourishing will demands redistribution when we have tothink about it? In those terms, Susan Jones is an independent research er, anactivist who advocates for visual artists. She shares some of Saliansconcerns about evaluation and regulation in any system of targetedsupport. There will be winners and losers. In the end, it becomes aquestion of value. How do we value creative work and are some workersvalued more highly than others? Susan argues that visual artists inparticular have been undervalued or overlooked by policy makers. Thetrouble with doing it from the policy perspective is that you know pigeonsonly see pigeons and I looked a lot at how policy tackled in equality andaspirations for fairness and so on over maybe a forty year period, but I thinkactually, the most telling thing is what happens in Ovid, which did exactly what it had always done,which is kind of leave. The Free Lancers on a limb until somebody didsomething you know whatever. That happened to be the fact that, forexample, the parameters for applying for emergency funding from the outcouncil automatically excluded. The vast majority of vision, artists,because of the fifty percent and income ruled wasn't unknown to thearts cancel. I had done research and it knew it, but it's still allowed that tohappen, and that happens in government. So we went the seventy. Five percent ofvisual artists were ineligible to apply. Those things are avoidable, with goodquality information at the top, but they weren't a voices and they stillaren't being avoided and universal basic income will keep putting thatluster pass to put up on the broken leg and what we have now is actually nomore visual artist than there were in the s when, in fact, a lot of artistscould sign on and seventy five percent of visual artists could do part timeteaching. But what we have created is a huge who sways a professional activitywithout whom, apparently, artists can't exist. So just in short, I think what Iwould say who defines what is important and whatenables the supply and who is, in fact self serving by maintaining aninstitutional structure. If we really want to get to the group of creativeand human flourishing, we really have to examine where the excess is and notseek to put a bit more kind of ecoute a little bit more money to a few peoplein an impoverished sector. Perhaps we shouldn't be looking to policymakers tosolve the problems of creative work. Stephen argues that artists need towork together to set up collective bargaining agreements, assuming, ofcourse, that the artist unions are powrful enough to bring everybody tothe table. I would say that government...

...give and government take away. You knowwe've seen that, since the N H is- and I think the problem with relying onpublic policy and government is, they do take things away and when Sallytalked about what we mean by regulation, I guess my view as a trade unionist isthat over the years trade union is trade. Unions have kind of surrenderedtoo much of their collective power. Really inresponse to government policy by relying on the law, rather than you know the power of theworkers that they organize. So when I personally talkabout regulation of a sector, it is about empowering workers to takeownership of the issues organizing and trying to get collective bargaining inplace, whether that, in you know the freeland sector or the employed sector-and I absolutely take on board at Sally said about you- know the localism ofthe grime scene and by talking about orchestras, I wasn't meaning todiminish that, because we do speak to grime artists, you know and they haveexactly the same problems when it comes to contractual matters working witheach other or recording that every other part of the industry has. Sothat's what I mean by regulation and yeah government give Goeman takes away,and I think the answer is in our own hands to you know champion a lot ofthese issues and work together to get a better system. After Stephen, I gave afinal word to each of our two other panelists. Here's some closing thoughtsfrom mags pattern from the hearts council. I'm going to agree with seasonreally, which is that that you know we live in an extremely individualistsociety, but we seen the power of the collective through through Coleg. Thecollective conversations we've been able to have a particularly withfreelance artists and workers throughout thisperiod has been powerful and important, and so how we can advocate for thecollective I think, and how that can work through different mechanisms is,is important, but thank you for a really stimulating conversation today,but I also have really enjoyed hearing about the the French context Anton meton a fort o reading. More about that, I think, and finally, here's highlyAshton from University of Warwick, I guess there's never going to be asimper bullet. There's never going to be one solution and I think any systemthat comes in needs to have an element of flexibility, but it also needs to bejoined up. It kind of weekly can't have just one thing and then hope thatthat's going to fix everything else when actually the system, as you saidright, the beginning- is a system itself that it's not working so soanything that comes that comes forward. It isn't going to be perfect, is nevergoing to be perfect. There are always going to be unintended consequences, but then it's about continuing theconversations and and then re thinking and rethinking and having an element offlexibility, but that does again require people to understand or to to things to be valued in society, andI think that's where even the prent system, I think, is there underpinning.That is this kind of fundamental understanding and value for what theculture and creative sector and what it brings to society and to us as people. We started this podcast series with aquestion: could the benefits and welfare system lead to a fairer andmore sustainable approach to creative work? Well, the answer seems to be that:U B, I could be a solution: leveling the playing field for new talent andproviding the time and space for creative flourishing for every artistand every citizen an opportunity to do the work you enjoy, not the job youendure, but once you try to apply this as a cultural policy, some familiarproblems come up. Who Will Benefit from this policy? How do you regulate orcredential the recipients? Will institutions and intermediaries win outover individuals, or is the solution to look at collective bargaining andmutual schemes coming not from government regulation or subsidy, butfrom artists themselves working together? Whichever way this debate goes, theyremain as highly suggested some fundamental questions about how wedefine and value creativity, creative work and artist. Only when we have someconsensus on what we mean by these terms, can we start setting up policiesto support them. You've been listening to the artistwith benefits. podcast with me, Chris Bilton I'd like to thank the panelhighly Ashton, Steven Brown and MAG's...

Patten. Thanks also to everybody whoattended the web. INARA took part of the discussion thanks to Mike Raczinsky,a boutique recording for producing this episode and for the music and thanks tothe University of Warwick Productivity in the future of work trp forsupporting us, and thank you for listening. If you would like to findout more about our research at University of Warwick into the futureof work in the creative industries, please contact Chris Bilton see DotBilton at Warwick d, a C dot. UK S E.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (3)